Although it is hard to predict the future i should think it is safe to say that corporal punishment will never make a return to British schools. However, if suppose for the sake of argument it was to be reintroduced again , in what circumstances should it be used? Only for serious offences or for small misdemeanours? Who should be allowed to punish? Only the head? Only a person of the same sex as the child? Should a child ever be punished on the bottom? Or in exceptional circumstances the bare bottom? Should only boys be punished? I should be interested to hear your views.
QuoteLikeSharePin Topic
Dominum
Jul 23, 2002#2
First thing, I wonder at the reasons you believe corporal punishment will never return to British schools. I’m interested because personally I think it’s quite likely it will at some stage, but obviously you’re closer to the situation than I am.
My reasons for believing it will probably return at some time, are based on looking at educational trends. There are two major trends of relevance here – the first is an increasing demand by more and more parents to be actively involved in deciding how their children are educated. The second is an increasing acknowledgement by those in the educational community that education needs to be differentiated to address individual needs. A variety of methods are needed in all areas of education to address the variety of children.
Attitudes change over time – the pressure for abolition reached a peak as more and more child psychologists, pediatricians etc, condemned physical punishment – many books and articles were written claiming that corporal punishment was universally harmful, never worked, etc. The thing is, that attitude has changed. Books and articles released recently are much less absolute and strident in their opinions. Most pediatricians, most child psychologists and the like, now accept that the occasional use of corporal punishment is unlikely to cause any long term harm, and that in some cases, for some children, it does work. The published evidence for this position is going to grow over time (not necessarily because it is entirely accurate – but because publishers and editors are now more willing to publish pro-physical punishment articles etc, and there are quite a number of papers floating around that were blocked from publication in the 1980s).
There is also a public perception that juvenile delinquency in many forms, behavioural problems in schools, etc, are increasing and getting worse. Whether this is objectively true or not, it’s the common viewpoint and it’s a viewpoint that is likely to grow. At some stage, human nature being what it is, serious efforts to restore corporal punishment as a way of dealing with the perceived problems will arise. Couple that with an increasing acknowledgement that parents, not the state, should have the dominant say in their children’s lives, and an increasing acknowledgement in the educational community that you always need a range of methods, I think it’s a fairly safe bet that at some stage, corporal punishment will return as an option to private schools in most countries – state run schools are a different matter. It might happen in those, but it’s far less likely.
I realise that there are international bodies – Courts etc – that make this more complex than just changing national laws, but over time their composition and makeup will change as well – and as the published evidence on corporal punishment becomes more equivocal, that will have an impact as well.
Just personal views.
Now – to your hypothetical questions.
“in what circumstances should it be used. Only for serious offences or for small misdemeanours?”
I am of the personal opinion that corporal punishment should be a medium level sanction – not one that is used in minor cases, but I’ve never been a fan of the idea that it should only be a last resort. In my humble opinion, calling it a last resort, and using it as such, was a desperate effort by some people to deflect criticism – but in the end it simply gave another form of ammunition to the abolitionist who were able to argue that if it was so severe as to only be a last resort, that proved it was very severe.
I believe that corporal punishment should be an option in cases where deliberate disobedience has occurred – in any case where there is a real element of premeditation involved. Where it’s quite clear that there was a deliberate choice made to break the rules.
I also believe it should be an option in cases where a pattern of similar behaviour has developed, and where other methods don’t seem to be working. This can include quite minor things – even down to the level of not doing homework – but in such cases, there should be some sort of pattern, and some attempt to use lesser sanctions first of all.
Note please – in both cases, I said it ‘should be an option’ not that it necessarily should be used. There’s a lot more involved in deciding who receives corporal punishment than the mere nature of the crime – at least there should be, I believe. You need to consider the personality of the child – there are some children who should not receive corporal punishment under any circumstances (I think, a very small group). There are others for whom, it should be a last resort. There are still others for whom it will have no positive effect on their behaviour, and there’s little point in using it in their case. I think teachers need to have enough understanding of their pupils to be able to make such judgements, and it can be a rather difficult thing to do.
Now – the three paragraphs above are what I’d like in an ideal world. But, I’d be willing to make some compromises. If all that existed was the following, I’d be fairly happy.
Bullying – I am firmly of the belief that corporal punishment should be an option when dealing with bullies. Not the only option, nor the first in most cases, but an option. My school is extremely successful in dealing with bullies and has a very low rate of victimisation. We’ve achieved that through a systematic program of dealing with bullies – it includes counselling, peer-mediation, teacher-aided-mediation, buddy systems, self esteem counselling for the victim, and for the bully, etc – and those things work in a great many cases. But there are some bullies for whom the only thing that works is to make the penalty sufficiently onerous as to deter their behaviour. If I didn’t have the option to cane bullies, I’d probably be expelling half a dozen of them a year – because in the end, if I can’t find an effective means of stopping them, I have a duty to protect their victims by getting rid of them. As it is, over the last twenty years, I’ve seen two boys expelled over it. Also – and it is a consideration – I have found that the use of the cane for bullying, has a positive impact on most of the victims – because they know that a real effort is being made to protect them – even if it’s taking time (for this reason, even when other methods are being used successfully, I often hand out a fairly light caning to a bully – because first of all, it can have a positive effect on their victim, to know they were punished, and also because it sometimes has a similar effect on the bully – many are quite disgusted with their behaviour, deep down, and a caning can help relieve that by making them feel they’ve paid for what they did).
So – I think it should be used pretty broadly – but I’d be content to settle for less.
“Who should be allowed to punish? Only the head?”
Ideally, in my opinion, most teachers – except those who are still very inexperienced, or those who have shown they cannot be trusted to deal with these issues.
Realistically, I have no real problem with restricting it to a smaller group – exactly who would depend on the size of the school, it’s organisational structure etc – perhaps the principal/head, their deputy or deputies, form masters/year level coordinators (so many different terms for the same jobs), for example. Also on how often it is used.
Ideally it should be enough people that nobody has to do it too often – I cane at least two boys most weeks, and I really would not want to do any more than that – although sometimes I do wind up doing so. Do it too often, I think there is a real risk you might have some teachers turning sadistic on you. It’s also not a pleasant task – at least it shouldn’t be – and I think there’s a limit to how much a teacher should be expected to administer it.
“Only a person of the same sex as the child?”
This is a hard one for me. I am personally of the belief that a male teacher really shouldn’t be physically punishing girls – but part of that is based on my personal experiences and feelings – I’m not sure that should be extrapolated to all male teachers. And I have no real problem with the idea that female teachers should punish boys – indeed, teaching in an all boys school as I do, I think it would be extremely unjust to deny my female staff the same powers that male staff have. So it’s a dilemma for me.
In my ideal world – it’d be up to the teacher to decide whether or not, they should punish any child, including those of the opposite sex. Those who feel it’s inappropriate in their case, for whatever reason, should be able to delegate the responsibility to someone else – teachers should be trusted to do the right thing by their charges.
In the real world… realistically in a co-educational environment, I think you need to restrict corporal punishment to teachers of the same sex. It’s a sad fact that not all teachers can be trusted to self regulate, and if you are going restrict men from punishing girls, equality demands women are restricted from punishing boys. In single sex schools, my opinion changes – you can’t restrict one group of teachers from administering punishment another group is entitled to administer – in such cases, you either restrict its use to a very small group, which ‘just happens’ to be all one gender – or you trust your teachers enough to do the right thing.
And I should probably point out that I am talking about secondary age children – I think with primary school children the situation changes – class teachers should be able to punish any child in their class, regardless of gender.
“Should a child ever be punished on the bottom?”
Always in my opinion – it’s the safest place. I have *never* approved of administering corporal punishment on the hands – I’m well aware the risks are still low, but I think they have to be as low as possible.
“Or in exceptional circumstances the bare bottom?”
In a modern educational climate, definitely not. There’s simply too much risk involved. If the climate changes, that might change – but it’d have to change a fair bit.
“Should only boys be punished?”
No – they wanted equality – they have to accept the bad with the good. 🙂
To be serious, girls can commit all the same offences boys can. They should expect to accept the same penalties for those offences. Again, as I said earlier, I believe the individual needs to be considered, and it’s possible that on such individualised consideration, girls might wind up being physically punished less often – but that’s a decision that should be based on personality, and the like – not plumbing.
Dominum
QuoteLikeShare
Steff
Jul 23, 2002#3
Dominum,
Thank-you for taking the time to provide such an interesting effusion of thoughts. In the UK today both those who agree and those who disagree with you could no doubt agree to characterise it as highly ‘academic’.
QuoteLikeShare
Jockie
Jul 23, 2002#4
Yes pipe dream stuff, mores the pity !
Jockie
QuoteLikeShare
James
Jul 23, 2002#5
First thing, I wonder at the reasons you believe corporal punishment will never return to British schools. I’m interested because personally I think it’s quite likely it will at some stage, but obviously you’re closer to the situation than I am.
My reasons for believing it will probably return at some time, are based on looking at educational trends. There are two major trends of relevance here – the first is an increasing demand by more and more parents to be actively involved in deciding how their children are educated. The second is an increasing acknowledgement by those in the educational community that education needs to be differentiated to address individual needs. A variety of methods are needed in all areas of education to address the variety of children.
Attitudes change over time – the pressure for abolition reached a peak as more and more child psychologists, pediatricians etc, condemned physical punishment – many books and articles were written claiming that corporal punishment was universally harmful, never worked, etc. The thing is, that attitude has changed. Books and articles released recently are much less absolute and strident in their opinions. Most pediatricians, most child psychologists and the like, now accept that the occasional use of corporal punishment is unlikely to cause any long term harm, and that in some cases, for some children, it does work. The published evidence for this position is going to grow over time (not necessarily because it is entirely accurate – but because publishers and editors are now more willing to publish pro-physical punishment articles etc, and there are quite a number of papers floating around that were blocked from publication in the 1980s).
There is also a public perception that juvenile delinquency in many forms, behavioural problems in schools, etc, are increasing and getting worse. Whether this is objectively true or not, it’s the common viewpoint and it’s a viewpoint that is likely to grow. At some stage, human nature being what it is, serious efforts to restore corporal punishment as a way of dealing with the perceived problems will arise. Couple that with an increasing acknowledgement that parents, not the state, should have the dominant say in their children’s lives, and an increasing acknowledgement in the educational community that you always need a range of methods, I think it’s a fairly safe bet that at some stage, corporal punishment will return as an option to private schools in most countries – state run schools are a different matter. It might happen in those, but it’s far less likely.
I realise that there are international bodies – Courts etc – that make this more complex than just changing national laws, but over time their composition and makeup will change as well – and as the published evidence on corporal punishment becomes more equivocal, that will have an impact as well.
Just personal views.
Now – to your hypothetical questions.
“in what circumstances should it be used. Only for serious offences or for small misdemeanours?”
I am of the personal opinion that corporal punishment should be a medium level sanction – not one that is used in minor cases, but I’ve never been a fan of the idea that it should only be a last resort. In my humble opinion, calling it a last resort, and using it as such, was a desperate effort by some people to deflect criticism – but in the end it simply gave another form of ammunition to the abolitionist who were able to argue that if it was so severe as to only be a last resort, that proved it was very severe.
I believe that corporal punishment should be an option in cases where deliberate disobedience has occurred – in any case where there is a real element of premeditation involved. Where it’s quite clear that there was a deliberate choice made to break the rules.
I also believe it should be an option in cases where a pattern of similar behaviour has developed, and where other methods don’t seem to be working. This can include quite minor things – even down to the level of not doing homework – but in such cases, there should be some sort of pattern, and some attempt to use lesser sanctions first of all.
Note please – in both cases, I said it ‘should be an option’ not that it necessarily should be used. There’s a lot more involved in deciding who receives corporal punishment than the mere nature of the crime – at least there should be, I believe. You need to consider the personality of the child – there are some children who should not receive corporal punishment under any circumstances (I think, a very small group). There are others for whom, it should be a last resort. There are still others for whom it will have no positive effect on their behaviour, and there’s little point in using it in their case. I think teachers need to have enough understanding of their pupils to be able to make such judgements, and it can be a rather difficult thing to do.
Now – the three paragraphs above are what I’d like in an ideal world. But, I’d be willing to make some compromises. If all that existed was the following, I’d be fairly happy.
Bullying – I am firmly of the belief that corporal punishment should be an option when dealing with bullies. Not the only option, nor the first in most cases, but an option. My school is extremely successful in dealing with bullies and has a very low rate of victimisation. We’ve achieved that through a systematic program of dealing with bullies – it includes counselling, peer-mediation, teacher-aided-mediation, buddy systems, self esteem counselling for the victim, and for the bully, etc – and those things work in a great many cases. But there are some bullies for whom the only thing that works is to make the penalty sufficiently onerous as to deter their behaviour. If I didn’t have the option to cane bullies, I’d probably be expelling half a dozen of them a year – because in the end, if I can’t find an effective means of stopping them, I have a duty to protect their victims by getting rid of them. As it is, over the last twenty years, I’ve seen two boys expelled over it. Also – and it is a consideration – I have found that the use of the cane for bullying, has a positive impact on most of the victims – because they know that a real effort is being made to protect them – even if it’s taking time (for this reason, even when other methods are being used successfully, I often hand out a fairly light caning to a bully – because first of all, it can have a positive effect on their victim, to know they were punished, and also because it sometimes has a similar effect on the bully – many are quite disgusted with their behaviour, deep down, and a caning can help relieve that by making them feel they’ve paid for what they did).
So – I think it should be used pretty broadly – but I’d be content to settle for less.
“Who should be allowed to punish? Only the head?”
Ideally, in my opinion, most teachers – except those who are still very inexperienced, or those who have shown they cannot be trusted to deal with these issues.
Realistically, I have no real problem with restricting it to a smaller group – exactly who would depend on the size of the school, it’s organisational structure etc – perhaps the principal/head, their deputy or deputies, form masters/year level coordinators (so many different terms for the same jobs), for example. Also on how often it is used.
Ideally it should be enough people that nobody has to do it too often – I cane at least two boys most weeks, and I really would not want to do any more than that – although sometimes I do wind up doing so. Do it too often, I think there is a real risk you might have some teachers turning sadistic on you. It’s also not a pleasant task – at least it shouldn’t be – and I think there’s a limit to how much a teacher should be expected to administer it.
“Only a person of the same sex as the child?”
This is a hard one for me. I am personally of the belief that a male teacher really shouldn’t be physically punishing girls – but part of that is based on my personal experiences and feelings – I’m not sure that should be extrapolated to all male teachers. And I have no real problem with the idea that female teachers should punish boys – indeed, teaching in an all boys school as I do, I think it would be extremely unjust to deny my female staff the same powers that male staff have. So it’s a dilemma for me.
In my ideal world – it’d be up to the teacher to decide whether or not, they should punish any child, including those of the opposite sex. Those who feel it’s inappropriate in their case, for whatever reason, should be able to delegate the responsibility to someone else – teachers should be trusted to do the right thing by their charges.
In the real world… realistically in a co-educational environment, I think you need to restrict corporal punishment to teachers of the same sex. It’s a sad fact that not all teachers can be trusted to self regulate, and if you are going restrict men from punishing girls, equality demands women are restricted from punishing boys. In single sex schools, my opinion changes – you can’t restrict one group of teachers from administering punishment another group is entitled to administer – in such cases, you either restrict its use to a very small group, which ‘just happens’ to be all one gender – or you trust your teachers enough to do the right thing.
And I should probably point out that I am talking about secondary age children – I think with primary school children the situation changes – class teachers should be able to punish any child in their class, regardless of gender.
“Should a child ever be punished on the bottom?”
Always in my opinion – it’s the safest place. I have *never* approved of administering corporal punishment on the hands – I’m well aware the risks are still low, but I think they have to be as low as possible.
“Or in exceptional circumstances the bare bottom?”
In a modern educational climate, definitely not. There’s simply too much risk involved. If the climate changes, that might change – but it’d have to change a fair bit.
“Should only boys be punished?”
No – they wanted equality – they have to accept the bad with the good. 🙂
To be serious, girls can commit all the same offences boys can. They should expect to accept the same penalties for those offences. Again, as I said earlier, I believe the individual needs to be considered, and it’s possible that on such individualised consideration, girls might wind up being physically punished less often – but that’s a decision that should be based on personality, and the like – not plumbing.
Dominum
Click to expand…
Thankyou for your interesting comments. I hope you don’t think i sound like a little Englander but since we have become part of Europe, we seem to not be in charge of our own destiny anymore and to totally accept European values. I can see little realistic chance of things changing, so pipe dream about sums it up.
I would like to see women in charge of all corporal punishment at junior schools at least because they, in my limited experience handle such things much better. All corporal punishment should be applied to the bottom because it has obviously been designed by nature for just this purpose! Gluteus Maximus’ for maximum benefit!
We were always told corporal punishment was the last resort but it wasn’t as just skipping a detention or dodging homework or even giving some chap the bumps on his birthday could earn you a caning. I dont think it should be a punishment of last resort, as long as it is graded fairly according to the particular offence. I think the slipper is an ideal punishment for all but the most serious rule breaking. The cane should be reserved for thieves, bullies and for acts of gross vandalism etc.
As for bare bottoms. This might appeal to some from an aesthetic point of view but i would honestly say no, it just isn’t necessary. Anthony Cheveneix Trench, headmaster of Fettes and Eton, used to offer attractive canees the choice of a strapping on the bare bum or a more painful option of a normal caning. I remember Auberon Waugh writing that it must have been hard to for pupils to decide which would give their headmaster more pleasure.
QuoteLikeShare
Elaine
Jul 24, 2002#6
Many thanks to Dominum for his thoughts on the return of CP to the school system. I believe that it will return, but only within the independent sector. Parental choice will eventually win the day.
I am well known for my views on gender issues with respect to corporal punishment and have written at length on other forums about the topic. I do however believe that to leave the execution of corporal punishment entirely to men is where the problems commence. Abuse of the system is where the rot set in and men were to be found at the heart of most of it. Women are far better placed to provide corporal punishment in a caring if strict manner. Even where men are the decision makers in single sex schools it would be far better to have a female witness who would provide a stabilising influence on the man inflicting the punishment.
Can I ask Dominum how many female teachers are regular users of the cane in his school? In an earlier post to another board he indicated that the school matron sometimes witnessed punishments, does he feel that this is to provide the sort of protection and balance that I have mentioned?
Elaine
QuoteLikeShare
Jockie
Jul 24, 2002#7
Weel gettin belted (and in very early schooldays, slapped on thigh) by women teachers is whit started me doon this lang road! So ah suppose its only richt to bring along another generation tae keep oor forums going!
Dont you kid yersel Elaine ma dear, there were jist as many wanton sadists of the feminine gender in my school. See when some o them wimmin picked up that belt weel they jist went mad !
So abuse did end CP, but it wasn’t a gender issue in my experience.
Jockie.
QuoteLikeShare
Dominum
Jul 25, 2002#8
Many thanks to Dominum for his thoughts on the return of CP to the school system. I believe that it will return, but only within the independent sector. Parental choice will eventually win the day.
I am well known for my views on gender issues with respect to corporal punishment and have written at length on other forums about the topic. I do however believe that to leave the execution of corporal punishment entirely to men is where the problems commence. Abuse of the system is where the rot set in and men were to be found at the heart of most of it. Women are far better placed to provide corporal punishment in a caring if strict manner. Even where men are the decision makers in single sex schools it would be far better to have a female witness who would provide a stabilising influence on the man inflicting the punishment.
Can I ask Dominum how many female teachers are regular users of the cane in his school? In an earlier post to another board he indicated that the school matron sometimes witnessed punishments, does he feel that this is to provide the sort of protection and balance that I have mentioned?
Elaine
Click to expand…
Out of around 110 teachers, about 50 are permitted to use the cane (the others either haven’t even asked for the power, or haven’t been given it for various reasons). About 30 of the 50 choose to do so (in that at some stage in the last three years or so, they have done so).
Only 11 staff members make any regular use of the cane, and only 2 of those are female.
As to why the matron is sometimes present, that relates mostly to our practices developed in the early 1980s, when we began to develop an institutional paranoia about ensuring our methods were beyond reproach. As part of the procedures we now have to use, boys are entitled to three avenues of appeal if they choose to exercise it (very few do) – they may appeal to me (or to the headmaster if I am the one they are appealing about), they may appeal to a counselor, or to the matron (or one of her deputies – she’s not always around). The idea behind allowing the appeals to the counselor, and to the matron is that in some cases, there may be psychological issues, or medical issues involved that mean the cane shouldn’t be used – and a boy might feel uncomfortable raising them with a teacher. Hopefully, they wouldn’t have the same problem with the others.
In cases when an appeal occurs, and the person appealed to decides the punishment should continue, they are then required to be present during the punishment to ensure the appeal is not held against the boy, and the punishment isn’t increased.
We also have a list of boys who should never be caned, and a list for whom caning should only be used in very special circumstances – the second list contains notations that may indicate that in a particular case, the counselor or the matron should be present. That only arises very occasionally – generally if the boy’s name is on the second list with that type of notation, they just don’t get caned.
The only relevance this really has to the issue you describe is that I would suspect a teacher who was abusing their authority in any sense, would be more likely to trigger appeals.
We have to jump through a lot of hoops, nowadays.
Dominum
QuoteLikeShare
Christopher
Jul 25, 2002#9
Dear Dominum,
I understand that your school does not generally require a witness to be present when a caning is administered. What happens when one of the two female teachers you mentioned canes a boy? Is a witness required then?
QuoteLikeShare
Dominum
Jul 26, 2002#10
No.
We generally don’t require a witness. We also do not place specific restrictions on female teachers as that would be a potential violation of Equal Opportunity legislation (there are some exemptions concerning schools and EO – such as restricting access to change rooms, but they are cases which have already been addressed. If it hasn’t been addressed, we have to assume that EO applies fully). I suspect if it ever got to court, an exemption would result, but we really don’t want to end up in court even if we ended up vindicated.
We have considered the idea of mandatory witnesses at times, but so far, we have decided against it, partly for logistical reasons, but also because the consensus among the boys is against witnesses being present.
Dominum
QuoteLikeShare
Read more posts (42 remaining)